Episode 2: Striking a balance between teacher and mum - with Ruth Brennan

Emily Macfarlane: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Little Minds Big Ideas podcast with the Early Years Network, the podcast where we are talking all things early years from inside and outside, our wonderful industry. Today I'm joined by the lovely Ruth Brennan, who is gonna talk to us all about her role as an early years lead and teacher in a primary school. I thought it would be really interesting to highlight, um, the different expectations and judgments that are made when you have a three-year-old daughter. You're also working in the industry, um, and kind of what it is like as mom and teacher in your two different worlds. So firstly, hello and welcome to the podcast

Ruth Brennan: Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for having me!

Emily Macfarlane: Really, really appreciate it. I'm really looking forward to sort of diving into mom teacher live. So to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the role that you play within the primary school.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah. So I am, um, a deputy head in a primary school, but my main, uh, I would say my [00:01:00] main role , but that's so deputy head's main role.

But my main role is deputy teacher and lead of early years across the school as well. So it's really, and I really have a passion. For teaching the other members of the staff in the school, the importance of play, talk, exploration, curiosity, those kind of key fundamental areas in early years that sometimes get, forget, forgotten.

Yeah. Higher at the school and actually is so important. Doesn't matter what age they are actually, they can't do those fundamental skills at a young age. That's the building blocks for everyone else. So I've got a real kind of push for curriculum and early years, um, And yeah, that's basically it as she,

Emily Macfarlane: so how do you find juggling being a working mom, especially as your role, like you say, is it's so big, it's so demanding.

You are wearing your deputy hat, your early years hat. Building that curriculum, how do you kind of juggle everything?

Ruth Brennan: It's really hard work. I'm not gonna lie. uh, working early years with some, um, with my little girl Ruby, [00:02:00] with such a similar age. It's really draining physically and emotionally and I find sometimes when you've had a hard day work, it's sometimes hard really to switch off or remember, I'm mum now and not teacher.

Um, I have to talk to myself or remind myself to stay patient. I think patience sometimes is a bit tricky when I get home because I've had to stay patient and calm with every in school, and then I get home and then Ruby does one little thing and I'm like, why you doing that? I'm like, that's not the way to deal with it.

So I think sometimes I just need reminding of the difference between . Mum, Ruby and teacher, and also, um, not stressing out about my work when I'm with Ruby. And actually having that split time I think is really important is I might have to, I do have to tell myself that sometimes enough. Put, put your ideas in your head ready for tomorrow to the side.

Yeah. It's all about family right now and that's important. Um, I try really hard to juggle it in the sense [00:03:00] that . A bit like what you were saying in one of your other, um, podcasts. It's all about setting a list. What do I need to get done this week for work? When can I get it done? And also prioritize and then if it's not done, nothing in education, it's ever done.

You've always got a list. The list is always growing all the time. And as soon as, as long as you get your head around that and go right. That's me done for tonight. I'm gonna spend this time with my, with Ruby or this weekend. I really try personally, everyone works different ways. Personally. I work solidly in the week.

I've spent time before putting to bed, but work late evenings to get, yeah, but then weekends, family times full stop in less than the rest comes. But really, really try hard be to have that work-life balance and actually enjoy. Ruby Beard at that age because they grew. It's such a fantastic age as

Emily Macfarlane: well,

Ruth Brennan: isn't it?

Yeah. So much fun and I just, I get jealous sometimes that in, I don't see as [00:04:00] much of Ruby in the day when she's learning all these things that I'm teaching the other children. I'm like that wow moment as a teacher go, they've got it. It's so good. They've clicked it. I don't get to see that with her.

Because it's such a demanding job. No,

Emily Macfarlane: definitely. And I guess that kind of, that leads me onto my next question a little bit. Do you ever find yourself crossing your home and work boundaries becoming that? Teacher figure to Ruby when you're at home rather than mum when you are at home

Ruth Brennan: completely like . I sometimes, you know, forget I'm actually at home and I was like, yeah.

Oh, Mrs. Brennan can do, she just looks at me and I'm, I was already mummy. I'm mummy, I'm mummy. That's who I am now. . Yeah. Which hat have I got on? Um, is really tricky. And also I think those boundaries of . When you're looking after other children, other people's children, you do look after them differently.

Yeah. And the risk taking is a little bit, you've got more of a control, I guess. Yeah. [00:05:00] When it's with your little girl, I find sometimes my, my husband has to step in and go, no, it's okay. Because I'm like, no, they might hurt themselves or they might do things. Yeah. And actually I'm like, well, no. At school, I think about the risk.

I'd think about dynamic risk of, and I'd let them do it if I knew it was safe. I think sometimes somebody outside needs to say, it's okay. It's gonna be okay. It's okay. She's fine, she's fine. So yeah, definitely boundaries are are crossed and I don't think you can help that. No, I think

Emily Macfarlane: it's whatever job you're in, isn't it?

You, you step away from work, but it's with education being so demanding, you're constantly thinking about work. It doesn't matter what you're doing. And if you are with very similar age groups, you go home to Ruby, who's three and it's. Yeah, it just all kind of merges.

Ruth Brennan: But then on a positive, it's really great because you think, oh, that worked really well in my class.

You know what? I'm gonna see what it's like with Booby. Yes. Or test them out beforehand. Sometimes I go, yeah, oh, let's try this activity. And she loves it so I'm like, right. Great. I can do it obviously, 'cause it's slightly different ages but you to [00:06:00] her as like a testing ground. Yeah. Which is really nice.

And you know, borrowing those resources. Yeah. Even know the opportunities as well is always kind of handy for her. Yeah,

Emily Macfarlane: definitely. Um, so obviously being in, in the school with lots of other children, how often do you find yourself comparing Ruby to other children? Do you kind of Oh, she does that. She doesn't do that.

I'm glad she doesn't do that. Or things like that.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah, I think I'd been lying if I said I didn't. I'd like to think I wouldn't. Yeah, don't. But it's easy said than done. You just think, oh, hang on a minute. She can do that, but they can't. Or vice versa. Oh, they can do that and she can't. But I think because understanding children, they all develop so differently and in so at so many different rates and things, it is really hard.

And I try really hard to think actually they're coming completely different children. It's like comparing two children in the class isn't, it's so different and they've got real strengths of certain areas. Not in other areas. Yeah. Um, but it, yeah, it [00:07:00] is hard. I do go home and think, oh, has sometimes feel really proud.

I'm like, oh, min that, which just surprised me. Another things I'm like, oh gosh, I need to work on that. She's gonna, she can't. Yeah. She's going to school scene. I really need to think about that. Yeah. Do you

Emily Macfarlane: think that. Being a teacher has impacted the way you look at Ruby's development, especially knowing early years so well, and the best ways to teach other children and to kind of when she's at nursery, think

They're saying she can't do that, but I know she can do it. Or vice versa. What? What are you talking about? She can't do that, but they're seeing it. You kind of look at development in a different way.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah, I do. Because actually they all show their strengths and weaknesses in their comfortable spaces, sometimes better than others.

And I think that's really important for anybody to notice. And sometimes as teachers, when you go in and say, but they can do that. You don't wanna be that teacher. You really don't. You don't wanna be that. You're just like, oh, but I know she can do that because, You just don't wanna be that parent that that's, that you are the teacher.[00:08:00]

So you expecting yeah. Them to do that. So I think it's really important to think separately about, this is my child's development actually. This is where I'm happy that she's where she is. Yeah, I'm happy that she can do it. I know she can do it. Then that's fine. And actually if nursery tell me that she can do something that I'm surprised, I'm like, great it hair record.

Yeah, absolutely. Push her. Great. That's, you had to kind

Emily Macfarlane: of challenge some of the things that nursery say to you about development. Have you ever found that it's been different from what you found? Or do you think that the way that the early years sector that or the setting that she's in is kind of represented?

Her quite well. Do you find?

Ruth Brennan: Yeah, I think Ruby kind of fits in in a lot of places anyway. She's very emotion exploration girl. Yeah. She can just get involved, get messy. She will do, um, everything that she wants to do. She's quite strong-willed. Um, but I do think there has been times that I've thought actually, I don't think she's maybe [00:09:00] being challenged from her.

Yeah. Or that she's not had as many opportunities as maybe. Somewhere else when you, when you talk to your friends in other nurseries and they're doing something different, but then you've gotta weigh up actually the happiness. I think that's the key thing. Definitely. Yeah. If your child is happy, And then that that helps you.

It relieves your pressure. Especially, like I said, with a pressure job. Yeah. Just knowing that she's happy in the environment that she's in. With friends. And with friends. Yeah. She's developing, she's moving forward. As long as she's not standing still, I just definitely, yeah. You know. Great. Yeah, I think, no, definitely.

And also we have to be supportive, like for everybody in the profession because it is such a hard job. Doesn't matter where you were in early years. It's so demanding. It's exhausting. Physically, emotionally, it's just, and all the resources, everything you've got set up and you're planning. I just think I'm not, I would never go in, I don't think and be like, actually you need to be doing this, that, and the other.

Yeah, we should be a supportive. We should all be here for support and that's the [00:10:00] whole reason why you're doing this is to. Yeah, help each other. I think that, '

Emily Macfarlane: cause like you said, every, like trying to this industry, I think we just sit at the bottoms education, unfortunately. Yeah. Even though everyone always shouts about how important those first five years are, but really, I don't think anyone in the industry really communicates.

And I think it always feels like it's a competition, but actually, yeah, everyone wants the same thing. Everybody just wants the youngest children in our generation or in our society authority to, to thrive. Yeah. And develop and become incredible adults. And I think it, it sometimes gets a little bit frustrating 'cause you think, God, we, we all just want the same thing with these children.

It's like, God, we just shout about how amazing everybody is and just, yeah. Absolutely.

Ruth Brennan: Thrive. And I think that's actually as well pointing that I think some of my members of staff, you know, sometimes get sick of me, but I'm like, come on, play early years. Don't forget early years. Yeah. Is so important. I think you're right.

People do think we're at the bottom and actually it's not. And that's why I must admit in my staff meetings all the time, I'm like, hang on a minute. This doesn't [00:11:00] start at year one. Actually no. In starts, well before even the start school, but come on, we need to think about where we can make a difference.

And actually that's early year at a lot of stuff. Always like, oh, where she goes again, I, me, yeah. I'm

Emily Macfarlane: like, you kind of get a little bit lost in, in the school, in as an as an age group, do people kind of see it as year one? 'cause they sit down and learn. It's very different. They learning

Ruth Brennan: different. Yeah, exactly.

I often get the comments and it's a bit of tongue in cheek now 'cause we'll see where they are. They're like, oh, reception's only playing. Um, yeah, I thought, oh no, you, I try. Come on, have a go. When else? The thing that sometimes they're terrified of coming into reception, they're stu at the door, they just can't experience it.

So I think, um, yeah, because there's two different curriculums. People do see them as SRA where they can't fit in because they're finished. We are the end of reception's, obviously the end of the early years, isn't it? Profile, yes. Yeah. So they think, well, that's, you are done. They're done. And actually it's not, and that's [00:12:00] what I personally am trying really hard to stop because we can do so much more.

Emily Macfarlane: Definitely it's, it is, it is like we are trying to just shout really loud from the bottom for somebody to hear us and then you get. All the things come out in, I think we get in the news, there's all these stories about early years that lasts five minutes and we get a little bit of a song and shout and then, and then it goes back down and it, the silly else comes around and you just think, no, we need to, I could talk for hours about Yeah.

The need of early years. Sorry,

Ruth Brennan: I'm blocked. I can play you .

Emily Macfarlane: And it's back to where we were. Do apologize. We're on a, went off

Ruth Brennan: and won everybody. Um, so

did

Emily Macfarlane: you find leaving Ruby. Inner setting was difficult. Even though you probably encourage children to come into reception every day. Like, you're

Ruth Brennan: fine. Come

Emily Macfarlane: on.

Yeah. But then leaving Ruby, I bet it was a, a different

Ruth Brennan: catalyst in It was so hard. Hard. So much harder than I thought it was gonna be. It really was. I thought, like you said, we are always like, come on, off you go and you want them to be that [00:13:00] independent at this same time. I was like, I'm like, I ne Ruby the first time, obviously when she was.

Seven or eight months old at that time, I had to go back to work. And yeah, it was really hard. And actually since then, I think I've probably changed my mindset a little bit of being a, a mum and a teacher. Um, Because actually it's such a juggling act and the emotions that you can't explain to 'em does it have a child at home?

And juggling that. Their emotions. Your emotions, leaving them, the mum guilt, oh my goodness, her mum guilt suddenly I never realized until when I had to leave Ruby first. And obviously the long hours and then you are constantly thinking, like we said earlier, don't switch off. Um, yeah, I find it. Harder than I thought.

Really? Harder than I thought, and I still do sometimes.

Emily Macfarlane: How does she go into nursery life? Does she kind of settle? I know now she's, yeah, like you said, she goes in, she's happy, she's thriving. But at the beginning, how did she kind

Ruth Brennan: of, I think it was [00:14:00] really tricky actually. 'cause it was covid as well. It was a case of I couldn't even step through the foot of the door, so you had to leave a literally handle over or leave one of the floor and I get picked up and it was, that was heartbreaking actually.

Yeah. Some time. She actually settled really well and it was more me. And I think it was every time I picked her up, she was happy. She was happy to see me, but she was never really crying when I left her either. She was happy to go to the staff. Yeah, so she actually did really well. Now that's not everybody.

Everybody's no staff differently, don't they? And you can't control that unfortunately. Um, but I was really lucky. Ruby actually loved it. She loved coming in. She'd always go in. Yeah, I was really lucky.

Emily Macfarlane: I think it's, you never know, do you, you never know what that drop off is gonna be like. Even, even now at three, I can imagine it's some days you think

She's not slept. Yeah, she, she's grumpy. She doesn't, she doesn't wanna leave me. What am I gonna be faced with at the door when we drop her off at eight? I guess it's kind of like an [00:15:00] emotional

Ruth Brennan: rollercoaster. It really is. And then also you can't help but switch off as you're driving to work. 'cause obviously I drop off on the way to work.

Yeah. So I'm not already starting to get into work mode, but then she's ying around in the background, like keep talking about it, which is lovely. Absolutely lovely. But, and I had, again, going back to the question earlier, I have to remind myself, stop. You've got Ruby. Actually enjoy those times, enjoy that talk.

You can work and wait a little bit. You can have 10 more minutes, isn't you be there. Exactly. Yeah. But you're right. It is hard sometimes in the morning when she wants to decide what clothes to wear and I'm like, but it's for a school, so you can't wear that beautiful pushy dress. No, she's not appropriate.

And then it's compromising it. Again, I try and use the skills at work that you work with, that it doesn't work for your own child, does it? I can imagine it doesn't. No. It's like, well, I have no idea what to do. And three year old. Yeah. Honestly, some days it is like that. I'm like, do you know what I'm doing?

Do my job wise to do this?

Emily Macfarlane: Why are you not listening [00:16:00] to me? This is what I do. Oh, bless her. Um,

Ruth Brennan: have,

Emily Macfarlane: do you ever felt any pressure from yourself or others to kind of make sure Ruby's development is above or no? Like how do you Yeah. That manage that pressure, if there

Ruth Brennan: is any? I think there definitely is. I think.

As soon as you try. Well, I try to not let the people know that I'm a teacher, maybe straight away. So, which starts to my idea to not go, I'm a teacher. What dare she's doing? Because you're not pressured. Well, that they're expected. That child's gonna be all right. 'cause they're the teacher. They've got a teacher as a mum.

And actually I've taught children who've had teachers as mums and actually, you know, It's not always, no, we have to juggle everything. It's not as easy as that. So I think the pressure is there that, oh, without, they're all right. They've got a teacher's mum. That'd be fine. You don't have to worry about them or, or expectations of Well, I know how to do that.

Yeah. Actually, I might not have got around to that. And I'll to go with [00:17:00] her interest if she doesn't wanna write. She doesn't wanna write. Right now is No. Yeah. It's a different, it's kind of balancing your parental style, isn't it? And your teaching style and finding that middle ground, I think on what suits you as a person.

So doing this with me could be a completely different conversation to another teacher with a child. Yeah. In that they've found a different way of managing that. But I think anyway, when you go in pressure, whether you're dropping off at nursery, dropping off at school, they do. I think people do look at you.

Oh, the teachers look at teachers and go, well, She knows Yes. She likes what they're doing. My child knows what they're doing. Yeah. Do you think there's

Emily Macfarlane: ever, like, do, do you put your pressure on yourself or do you feel like it's mainly from outside looking in? Um,

Ruth Brennan: I do put pressure on myself. I think, I think it's a mix of the mixture because you hear about what goes on.

I think I really try hard not to push her an academic and I'm one to be like, just talk, talk, talk. Don't around the supermarket. I'm one of those plans, those annoying ones. That's the [00:18:00] thing. Let them have the. Shopping list talk. Where's the bananas? Can you get the bananas for me? What does it start with?

Can you find that letter on there? So I do it without kind of doing it, if you know what I mean. So I am pushing, putting pressure, I guess. 'cause I want her to learn, but immer in the life as well. Yeah. And that she, supermarkets are so important to be like, oh my gosh. Yeah. She loves so many things and it, but then on the flip, when she wanted to do it and you were just in a hurry, then you're.

Banana.

Emily Macfarlane: Someone's spell bananas right now. Let's go. Go.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah. Banana's a bad word. She can't spell bananas, by the way. so intelligent. Yeah, she can't do that.

Emily Macfarlane: I think anybody that's ever probably been around Ruby, uh, could, could understand that you do that with her because her vocabulary is you, you know, you can have a full blown conversation with her and nothing gets lost in translation.

She's kind of there so. It's like you say you're doing it without even realizing

Ruth Brennan: that it's, and then I feel like I, I encourage when I do my interview, um, [00:19:00] my . Information even is to new parents. I just say to them, I'm not asking you to do that. All I want you to do is talk to your child talk all the time.

Yeah, exactly. That's all. I don't think that's, that's too much to ask. No. That you talk to them and don't ignore them all the time. And talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Yeah.

Emily Macfarlane: It is like I always say is people in, like, when I go into baby rooms, all I wanna hear is a running commentary of your day. I don't care if the babies are just looking at you, but if you, you need to just

When you are making a bottle, what are you doing? One scoop, two scoop, three scoop under the thing, press like you, you just constantly talking because the only way children learn language is by being exposed to language. And I when you, when you think, well, I'm about you, but I think about it in the industry, I think you're so simple, obviously how they're gonna learn.

But if you don't know it yet, it is really hard to

Ruth Brennan: maybe get that. Yeah, and I think sometimes when I do these information evens, I feel like I'm teaching people to suck eggs, if you like. Like just tell that's what you do. But then it [00:20:00] doesn't come naturally to somebody. People does it and, and also thinking as a teacher and a mum, you've talked all day.

Then go home and having to talk and do the running commentary with your child. And that's why I said sometimes I have to remind myself, right. Come on, you've, you've been preaching all day to do this and you've got maybe another couple of hours to do, then you can switch off and then you can just sit.

Yeah. And then my husband like, do you wanna talk? No, no thank you.

Emily Macfarlane: No. I'm plug to everybody else today. You can just tomorrow and think sometimes, I mean, I heard a story once. It was, I think it was when I was training and they said, . A little boy was going for speech and language, and they sort of said to them, um, so how often do you talk?

And she says, oh, well, well, he never talks back, so I don't really talk to him and the speech and language. So I, I think it was a speaker when I was doing my, my course and they said, and there I had the problem because Yeah. And his child had never heard any speech because he wasn't talking back. And I was just, it just blows my mind sometimes.

Yeah. And it shouldn't because it's all about educating parents and adults as well as the children. But sometimes I do have [00:21:00] to think. Come on, Emily, that you, not everybody studied it. Not everybody understands child development and how children learn, so, but I find that difficult

Ruth Brennan: sometimes. But just talk.

You've been taught to my husband. I find that difficult. Yeah. I tell him, just explain to him what you are doing. Don't just snap at her. Why you doing this? Those things that talk you through, and you, you're right. I just think it's natural. Yeah. But actually it's not to somebody who's not in the industry at all, like

Emily Macfarlane: putting the child's shoes on with them.

I could probably make last for five minutes 'cause we are just chatting through what the shoes look like. Yeah. Are they, which foot does it go on? Can you do the ladies issue? Do the, you could just do it. Whereas some people just Yeah. Shoes on. Yeah. . Yeah. And off they go. So yeah, I think it is, it is interesting.

And that's another, that's another conversation about parents. But um, In terms of, like you said, with family time. Mm-hmm. What have you found works best for you? How do you balance it? Like you, you said you don't, weekends are family, so is that what you kind of stick with? Yeah, I really,

Ruth Brennan: really [00:22:00] try hard to do that.

I try not to look at emails and things. I really get all my planning done, resources done, so I do stay slightly later on a Friday so that I'm ready for the Monday, so then I can literally just switch off. Yeah, there's no excuse now. This is Pure Family times. And then I try it in the week too. When I get home.

Obviously I've picked her up from nursery. I get home, I spend a bit of time with her rather than worrying, well, I need to do this job, that job do other job. You need to get this. That can wait. Yeah. It's not actually putting her to bed is so important reason. That story is to her every single night, singing to her, every single like that, just talking about her day.

And I'm quite lucky. I think I try and fit that in because we've got a bit of a journey. 'cause I drop her on the way to work, so she's near real. Work, then she's home. Yeah, for that car journey, which is a really nice time actually, that she can just, she does sometimes say to me, I just need, I'm like, okay.

And then she get halfway home and she's like, okay, I'm ready to talk to you. Oh, it's something that she can tell you that though, like she's,

Emily Macfarlane: that is that that boundary, [00:23:00] isn't it? I'm not ready to talk yet. I've like, she's exhausted. She's been talking all day. All my teachers at preschool have been talking at me all day and I don't wanna do anymore.

Do you think that she. Enjoys those car like journeys because you can't look at your emails when you're driving. Yeah. To be in that moment.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah, I think she does actually. I think she, it gives her that time to . She loves talking about food. She's very fool, food orientated. That's a starting point in every time well have you have breakfast, I have tea.

And she gets in the middle bush. She's like, no, no, no. Let start again. And I think she just, she like quite likes recounting her day a little bit. Yeah. But interestingly, at that time, she's actually doesn't tell me as much. It's very much the everyday kind of things. Whereas at when you, at bedtime, when she's calm, when she's had a nice bath and she's, that's when suddenly something comes out about nursery or she's falling out with this person or this person did something that she didn't like.

And then, and I know sometimes it is tactic 'cause she knows and I would [00:24:00] sit and listen and then bedtime gets later and later. But also, I think that's important. Okay. I'm going to, I am gonna spend time and I'm gonna listen to you. I'd listen to my children at school. So

Emily Macfarlane: yeah, if they wanted to tell you something during the day, you'd make that time to.

Be there and listen, it's gotta be the same at home,

Ruth Brennan: isn't it? It's not easy. And there are some days, I mean, I'm saying this like, you know, that's what I do every day. Some days I'm not, I'm, I was only human. I just, yeah, definitely. Oh, I get, I snap at her. I, you know, you can't help it sometimes. And you, that's why I said sometimes I have to go right, breathe.

Let's get on, let's use those.

Emily Macfarlane: And what about the time with your husband? How'd you kind of, I'm gonna say fit that in, but I'm actually gonna say, No, didn't happen. .

Ruth Brennan: Well obviously we do, um, after we

Emily Macfarlane: gone to bed. You get up. But do you, do you find it important that you two still need to have, 'cause you are with children all the time and can imagine you just want some adult

Ruth Brennan: Yeah.

Conversation sometimes. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I mean, Ruper loves going to Pub Park, which is great 'cause that gives us that [00:25:00] adult conversation time. She goes off to play in the little park there and have a special fruit sheet. So that's quite nice for. Husband time as well. Yeah. So you can have that adult conversation but still feel like you're in a family situation.

Yeah. And then she pops over. Um, I probably could deal with 'cause of more, but yeah. Splitting in, isn't it? I'm with Jim on top and yeah, all those other things in time and type for yourself as well. Definitely. Um, all the reading that we all seem to do, we are all a bit artists in that, aren't we? We never wanna stop learning ourselves.

I, yeah. It's like

Emily Macfarlane: I'm just in the middle of something else and something else and drags on and on and I guess it's. But I think weekends, like you say, are really important. Being in a school, you don't, we're not open on a, we are not open. The builders not open. There's no children to worry about. So I'm in this moment and I'm present.

So I think it's working out what works best for, I think that's individual families,

Ruth Brennan: isn't it? Because I know some families that leave early in the week and they spend that time, but then work on a Sunday before work. Yeah. And that works for them. I [00:26:00] think you've just gotta make sure, in my opinion, that you make

That time, both that split time, that's important. Whether it doesn't matter how you do it, but you have family time and you have work time and you try not to cross them over. Yeah.

Emily Macfarlane: Um, so in the school as early years need and deputy, what is the part that you find most rewarding? What do you,

Ruth Brennan: the click moment?

Yeah, that. That's why I do it. It's, it's that when children achieve something, either they've set out to do or you've kind of given them the challenges to do and they just, they light up at the face and the appreciation, the fascination of the surprise to themselves, I've done it. Yeah. And just the questions and the constants that they age, aren't they?

They just are questioning all the time and. For me as well. I think they come into me with very little reading and writing, and they leave and they read and write. I just think I'm amazed every time, [00:27:00] every year I'm like, oh my goodness. Like they did it. Yeah, they've done it. The progress they make in early years doesn't matter whether they're one or they're four.

I think each year is an early years is so big and I think they click, click, click all the time. There's never that standstill. No. It's so quick to get that click moment. I think that's why that's the best things about. You know, most rewarding things about our job is just knowing you've given them the skills to do that.

You've helped them there. It's life skills, isn't it? Yeah. They'll

Emily Macfarlane: take with them, and I think without

Ruth Brennan: telling them how to do it, I mean, I'm working with a few MTAs and at the moment, practitioners at the moment that are very, very motherly, which is great, but actually you'll need to be teaching them the skills you need to not do it for them.

Give them the opportunities, question them facilitate, and then that part tick moment is even better because they've even, they've done it themselves. They've done it. Yeah. And you've just kind of facilitated around it. Give them that and the questioned, I think for me that's the biggest thing is [00:28:00] when they achieve something that they've set out to do and they're their little face Yes and no days are sa same as well.

And I love that. Yeah. It's rewarding because you might have a really awful day. It might have not gone well at all. And you then go, okay, another day, and the next day they bounce. It's just fantastic. Yeah, exactly. And you get those tip moments again. Yeah. I would

Emily Macfarlane: say every day in early years is the routine is there, but no day is the same.

You'll be doing different activities. Yeah. I mean, in schools it's slightly different from sort of an early years setting. There's different children in on those sorts of things and you, you just, yeah, the weather, the weather will play a part. Like what are we doing? Are we, can we ? Do everything that we plan to do, do we have to change it?

And you have to be flexible as well in, in early years you can't. If you've got a plan and it doesn't go to plan, you have to just accept. Yeah. That, and sometimes that's really hard, especially

Ruth Brennan: when you spend a lot time to pay your resources. Yes. And do it. And I think, yeah, you are [00:29:00] absolutely right, but actually the child interest going with that push, that effect, they can be used another day.

Exactly. Yeah. It's never

Emily Macfarlane: gonna be wasted, isn't it? No. Or if, if the activity doesn't go the way you thought it was going to, that's okay too. Yeah. Because the child's got something out of it and they're learning. But that sometimes got hard, I think with people coming into the early years. Mm-hmm.

Ruth Brennan: It's like, oh, well they didn't do this's to do that.

Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, we can do something. I didn't get any of this stuff done. Yeah, that's fine. But what did you get done? Yeah. Yeah. It's changing the mindset of definitely I didn't get that done to actually, what did you get done? Definitely.

Emily Macfarlane: Yeah. Um, and off the back of that, what have been kind of the challenges?

That you face either daily or you've faced that? Biggest challenges,

Ruth Brennan: I think, um, changes in the legislation government. I think everyone can agree with that. Um, like you said, the pressures of understanding play the arguments and well, not arguments, professional discussions Yes. Around play. And like I said, they are just playing actually, yes.

But. [00:30:00] I feel like I'm constantly having to argue what the importance of play. So just come and

Emily Macfarlane: watch this child play and I'll tell you exactly what they're getting out of it. Yeah. Or you go first and you tell me what they're not getting out of it, and then I'll tell you what they are getting out of it.

And,

Ruth Brennan: and I keep on talking that many things across all the curriculum, um, at time as well. Internet, it's just, especially with having Rubik, you can't fit in as much in the day. You just No, you just can't because you've gotta have that balance of family time as well. So, yeah, time government. So did we go into that today?

No, that's another conversation, isn't it? Absolutely. Um, and then, yeah, I think pressure, I you just playing in there and I think it's more apparent when you come to school because early it is very different as reception class to the rest of the school. When they come down and you are sat on the floor being a pirate one day and the next day you are in the SAM like buried.

And people just think, well, you're just having a lovely car and you're the deputy head. [00:31:00] You're thinking what you do. It's sometimes it's like, actually no, I'm doing my job. Yeah, and you are doing your job. It's very different. And then the next day I'm in there watching their lessons and going, actually you're not doing this.

Emily Macfarlane: We're gonna work on this. Do you find that, um, For me, I always think, when I think about the challenges that you said, it's time, it's, it's the government, but I always actually find it is adults that create my challenges in early years. There's challenging behavior from the children. Of course there is, there's different things that you face every day with the children, but actually the biggest challenges come from the grownups, not the children.

Ruth Brennan: Then, like I said before, trying to teach some of the grownups how to facilitate and not Yeah. Is really challenging them having the mindset of. I'm gonna get involved. I'm gonna be a child again. I think sometimes yeah. That I need to stand here and watch and observe and ask me doing my job. No, that's not doing and doing your job actually.

Um, yeah, I completely agree. Sometimes it is quite hard to [00:32:00] direct the adults. Yeah. To do what they're supposed to be doing, manage what they're doing as well as what you are doing and model the right way of doing, doing what you'd expect. So those expectations of it, of life and in an early years setting.

It's so difficult,

Emily Macfarlane: isn't it? Do you find, obviously with yourself, how many the earliest teachers do you have and do you have any like Tass who aren't qualified in the industry? How do you are set up? Is that,

Ruth Brennan: so there's myself as a teacher and then I have a TA in the morning and a TA in the afternoon. And depending on specific children's needs, I may have one-to-one.

So currently I do have a one-to-one in there as well. Um, they, I think . I've been in the industry a long time, but things have changed quite a lot. Yeah. And they started, so sometimes it's quite hard for me to go, well, yes, that's what you did however many years ago, but this is the new way of doing it now and this is what I expect to see.

I think that's quite challenging sometimes. [00:33:00] Um, especially when people aren't doing

Emily Macfarlane: their job badly. You just wanna see it a little bit differently and it's kind of, it's reteaching. What we know as learning through play is so important to people that maybe don't always . See it as a priority. Yeah,

Ruth Brennan: sometimes.

Yeah. Sometimes even changing that word. So when I first went into early years, I changed it to those words. It's learning through play. And even the children say that now it's time for learning through play. So they're their understanding. And then anybody that comes in knows, actually, yeah, we are playing, but we are learning.

They dunno how they, obviously the children don't know how in depth they're learning, but even just that vocabulary is quite useful. Definitely. Yeah. Um, but I think with the difference between, obviously nursery and school, there is less adults to children 'cause of their age, which can be quite hard to see everything, to make observations of everything.

Pressures obviously from the teacher doing all the data or the baselines or Yeah, the, the tick list stuff rather than [00:34:00] actually getting involved with them can be a challenge, I think. Yeah, because sometimes you have to, I dunno, tick the boxes to say you've done it 'cause pressure's higher, above. Yeah. And you don't necessarily agree with it.

I think everybody has those, don't we? We do think, because we don't necessarily agree with them because it's not the time to fight for it. Yeah. And wait for the time to maybe have

Emily Macfarlane: those conversations. Yeah. It's always, it's the outside pressures as well. AST it. Yeah. I've had conversations with people about sort of early years within schools when said, come and you get five minutes and you think, no, goodness.

Yeah. Why do I not get a whole day like a setting would or a preschool would because it's not preschool, it's the year above preschool. But if you are in a separate building on your own with these 30 kids or however many you've got in your class, you'd have nine till three with this off offset inspector.

But in a school setting, it feels like the rest of it's more important and you are just kind of.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah, completely. And when our last job said, you know, I'll be dragging them in, I like, no, you will see [00:35:00] what we are doing here. Uh, but they, it's tricky because is about to school improvement people, they're not, when they come into schools early, unless you get somebody who's actually passionate about early, actually been in an early year, they don't understand early years.

They're scared of it. They. Going back to, you know what we said earlier, people get to that door and they're like, oh, they're touching me. They're all over you. I was gonna say it's '

Emily Macfarlane: cause the children don't have those boundaries and they're not frightened to Well, if you've got nice, obviously in, um, what was trying to say?

Social children that want to get involved and independent, they will go and talk to someone who walks into the room. Yeah. Because it's their safe space. They feel comfortable to do it. So when other teachers or an inspector or someone walks in, it is a bit like, oh. All these kids are over me, what do I do?

And it kind

Ruth Brennan: of puts them off. I did have one head to, um, before that would literally would not step foot, he'd knock on the door and I'm way out. Come in me. That doesn't call you out. And it's like, oh no. And by the end of it though, I mean I again thought that's just me. [00:36:00] Yeah. I forced him in and actually it's about.

Not being scared and actually getting people into early years. And I'm doing that a lot with my subject leaders at the moment. In other areas, like we said, actually no, you will a non-negotiable, you're going to spend at least some of your subject leader time in early years to actually see it in action here because that's where it starts.

Emily Macfarlane: Definitely. I think it's, um, it's like we said, pushing for these little children and these little people that we're creating and helping to develop that. No, they've got a voice and it's not as loud as ours, so we will . To do it for them. And then it's always the loud, opinionated people in early years, I feel.

But I think

Ruth Brennan: it's the best way, say, I don't think, and everybody would say that. I think, yeah, I think everyone would fight for early years, definitely. Because we're so passionate about it. Yeah. Aren't we? Definitely.

Emily Macfarlane: Um, did you always know you wanted to be in education?

Ruth Brennan: No. No. Not at all. Um, I do, if I'm being brutally honest, I, um, was actually gonna be an r e s pilot.

Oh wow. Yeah. [00:37:00] Until I wrote off my car on the way to the Nice. Yeah.

Emily Macfarlane: brilliant. That was like the universe like, don't do it.

Ruth Brennan: You can't do it. So at that point I was like, right, what else can I do? What else I good at? And I've already always kind of been in leadership kind of. I was growing up with, um, sports teams and, um, St.

John Ambulance and things like that. So I thought, actually I like having that Yeah. And what not, and let's learn why. And now I wouldn't look back. I, I'd actually don't know what I would do. Yes, it's stressful. Yes. It's demanding. Yes it is. Of your whole life in certain ways. Just thinking, you see three in the shop and you go, that will be amazing.

Love the hard I have that for early years in your classroom. Actually, I dunno what more I'd do. Why me neither. Yeah.

Emily Macfarlane: I think I, I don't think good at anything else now. I'll be like, well

Ruth Brennan: look, a bad development .

Emily Macfarlane: That would be it I think. Yeah, it's, it's a very big U-turn that though from, yeah,

Ruth Brennan: very big. I dunno, I couldn't [00:38:00] pinpoint in the moment that it happened to be fair.

Emily Macfarlane: Just just happened. Happened. Yeah. And it was just the right,

Ruth Brennan: and then it's just gone on for how, how many years now? And just just love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Macfarlane: Would ever sort of step away from early years and go into different age groups or do you think early years you

Ruth Brennan: I did it the other way really? I started Okay.

Yeah. Older and come down to early years and now, no, I don't wanna leave it. Don't wanna leave it at all. Um, I think it would be a big. Jump to move out a bit now. I think I'm,

Emily Macfarlane: you got the year fives in the sand

Ruth Brennan: pit and . I think I'd be worried as you, so we doing science. It's amazing actually, you asking in the year fives if they wanna come and spend some time in your reception.

Oh my gosh. They're down here like a bet. They do. Yeah. And shots. Um, yeah, so I think my head probably wouldn't let me anywhere around. You. Done? Yeah. Um, and then my

Emily Macfarlane: final question that I've been asking [00:39:00] everyone, what was your favorite childhood memory? As we are talking all things early years,

Ruth Brennan: mine would be, Going down to the bottom of where I lived and playing in the woods, jumping over the stream, climbing the trees, and I mean that proves I'm in forest.

A school now doing forest, a school league. It kind of. That's where I, I loved, I loved it when a child, you'd pay Kirby and then you'd walk down the bottom. You'd be, we'd had this, I can absolutely vision it. This stream that went down the bottom to the big lake and well, it wasn't, it's not even that big.

But it was big because I, the child when I'm thinking about it and just getting muddy and coming back looking estate and loved it. Just being outdoors and exploring and beating the child. Yeah. Being on the bikes as well, being my other one. Riding around bikes outdoors. Yeah. And I think. And I try really hard to make sure we incorporate that because then sometimes that can be lost, can't it?

Um, I think that's just 'cause my passion of, but yeah, a hundred percent. I even remember teddy bear's picnic down the bottom from school [00:40:00] where we did that in, where we lived down the bottom in the stream and a child actually fell into the stream. It was very funny. The paperwork . I know. Yeah. Well, at that time I didn't care.

Think it was in reception at the time. It's like, yeah, I didn't care. I think it's

Emily Macfarlane: funny what you remember from childhood, isn't it? And then how it kind of, like you said, now Forest School is saying really wanna incorporate because of that, those happy memories of being outside. I mean, if you'd fallen out of a tree, maybe forest school wouldn't have been the route that you took, but I think there is such a link and that's why creating such happy memories in early years is.

Is really, really important.

Ruth Brennan: Yeah. So important. And actually when you look back and ask their children, who are your favorite teachers? A lot of them actually remember. Yeah. The indigenous teachers definitely. '

Emily Macfarlane: cause they make such an impact in such a small . Short space of time when they're still developing and learning all these amazing things.

So, but yeah. So thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I've been really interested and I think there's probably a hundred more topics [00:41:00] we can Yeah. Probably we are gonna cover rather than just parent and, and being a teacher.

Ruth Brennan: So, so yeah. Thank you so much. No, thank you. And um, thank you for listening everybody, and we will see you in the

Emily Macfarlane: next one.

Bye.

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